TWiGTV – 2: “mOE Money”

Listen to the 2nd TWiGTV cast, courtesy of “This Week in Gaming”, a live e-sports and gaming show hosted by @apoctv (of Darkfall and Star Craft 2 renown), @steelcss (pro Counter Strike player [ie he get paid to own]), and your indefatigable host of this site, me. Also, PRO CS player mOE, from the “San Francisco OPTX”, joins the cast; and honestly gives you some insight that will blow your mind wide open.

A little heads-up, the end of this cast got hijacked by Joshua’s pet robot.

See the raw live recording here:
part 1, begins at minute 8:45
part 2

DISCLAIMER: This cast may induce nausea, vomiting, and prolonged erections. Listener discretion is advised.

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41 thoughts on “TWiGTV – 2: “mOE Money””

  1. what? didn’t know you were into esports… I’ll have to check this out later.

    Another mmosmacktalk episode would be cool too, no rush though. It’s cool to get 3-4 hours of rare podcast action every now and then

  2. @Professer: thanks! I have a solo cast just about ready to go. Hopefully next week. RE me being into eSports, I’m not per se :) The TWiG cast is eSports centric with whatever else we want to throw in. I come in at the whatever else part.

  3. Any comments or feedback on TWiG guys? Let us know what you think, or if you have any suggestions we’d like to hear those as well. :)

  4. I am glad you posted here as I have been dying to comment. I watched the first 30 minutes but need to finish it. Ryan, you are very animated and it’s fun to see your expressions. The one kid, you looks 13 with the head phones too big for him just doesn’t get it. I don’t believe in the retarded term pupstar. Put me in BF3 with noobs and I am a pupstar or anyone is. What he doesn’t understand is that just because you are playing with casual gamers, or someone who doesn’t play the shooter 20 hours a day, doesn’t make you good. Plus to a lot of us gaming is fun and not a job. I so wanted to slap the shit outa him!

  5. @Yak Pubstar is just a term used by pro gamers when they talk about guys who are very good at the game, but aren’t quite at the top level yet, so they aren’t sponsored or on a top team.

    @Coolit I don’t know if I agree with that statement. There are guys who compete in games that don’t have a lot of money backing them, so they don’t make the 6 figures like SC2 pros do. But for the game they play, they may the be the best in the world, and are sponsored, etc. I personally would still consider them a pro gamer, even though their sponsors don’t pay them enough for them to fully pay all their bills, so they still have a part time job.

  6. @Yak: not looking to commit you to finishing, just curious… what are the odds of you returning to VIEW the remainder of the cast? Or is is something that once you turn off you might not return to until a new episode is posted?

    @Coolit: Couldn’t a pro be considered one who competes at the top tier of their sport/game and benefits monetarily from it (regardless of $, as that has to do with market interest)? I’m open to correction. Come at me bro!

    GENERAL QUESTION: did you guys pick up the ultra pro-tips on peripherals?

  7. I tried to listen to the part two. Maybe it’s too early in the morning. However, I don’t find it interesting for some dude to say how long he has played etc. Look any one who has no life and can put 20+ hours a day can be good at gaming. To be gaming is a hobby used for entertainment and fun. I have no desire to play a game until I puke to be a “pro” level to just only then suck the joy out of it for me. To me it would be the same thing as a TV watching contest.

  8. @Coolit if you get paid any amount to have sex, you’re a prostitute. Why can’t you be a professional gamer if someone has paid you to game?

    I sort of *ahem* agree with Yak that professional gaming cheapens what gaming is supposed to be about. I don’t want to live in a world where we hoist up scrawny nerds and Koreans because of their ability to not get carpal tunnel syndrome.

  9. It’s the same as any sport. Let’s take MMA for example. These guys not only train an obscene amount of hours per day, but they also even tailor their diets completely. They’re lives are pretty much dedicated to training for fights.

    @Yak One thing you said that was completely wrong, was that anyone can play games all day and be good. Unless you define “good” as decent. To be a top level pro, it takes some serious determination as well as some God-given talent. Not everyone can do it and have the result of being at the pro competitive level.

  10. Nice me and ” I Hate MMORPGs” are in agreement about professional gaming cheapens what gaming is supposed to be about. It’s always great to see this happen.

    @Apoc Video games are meant to be fun and so anyone can play them. Unlike an athlete you don’t need to be in shape or have to have the physical strength. Please find me someone who is over the age of 50, have a family, job, kids and life. Show me that they are a professional gamer. There isn’t one because again most people don’t have 20 hours a day that it takes to be on the competitive level. That’s exactly what the Koreans do, is make it a sport. I saw this about Star Craft once. It was a group of guys lived in an apartment all together. They weren’t aloud to leave or have girl friends. They just gamed 16-18 hours a day and slept.

  11. @Apoc the main difference between real sports and professional gaming is the amount of hard-work that is required. I will never have respect for a person based on their wrist-action, but I can certainly appreciate an athlete who wrecks their body in order to be better than everyone else.

    Little kids will never look up to gaming troglodytes, so it will never be competitively marketable in the U.S. like Football or Basketball.

    A positive for you parents (Ryan) at least the emergence of gaming as a career makes Art Majors less of a disappointment.

  12. @IHM: have you ever read the “Otherworld” series by Tad Williams? Basic synopsis – the series picks up in a future timeline wherein humans jack-in to machines. mmos become real, where your own thought twitch matters for rolling around, dodging, etc. If and when that happens, you think children will look up to any of those players?

    RE Art Majors – I resolved a long time ago that as long as my children were not worthless idlers, then I’d be happy with whatever they choose to pursue; and if the peak of their aspirations are lower than my expectations, then it’s likely a failure on my part to educate and inspire. As far as art is concerned… that is a real skill… one that I do not possess. And you’re right, gaming & cgi movies have added a lot of work for aspiring artists, which is great!

  13. BTW, I generally agree with what Apoc has written. I think there are two separate topics floating around here:
    1.) Is there a difference between players with pro talent vs players that play all the time – to which I say “yes”. I’ve seen it first hand. Take my own brother, for example. When we were children, he’d smoke me in games, yet we played the same games for roughly the same amount of time. Now while he could work me on certain games, there were certain non-game activities which game to me more naturally. In fact, that just made me remember another, non-game example. I was boxing with a buddy of mine, and he couldnt hit me to save his life… he just didnt have a single ounce of killer instinct, yet he could swing dance like a champ (got him lots of chicks :) ).
    2.) Is pro gaming a worthwhile endeavor – to which I say “yes”. If that’s what fulfills your life, then you ought to do it. I write code, and a ton of people would hate the shit out of that. Ultimately, what’s the difference. And before you say something like “well more people could use your skill”… that may be true, but who really needs pro-athletes. The way I see it, they offer 2 things that they share in common with pro-gamers: entertainment, and a yardstick by which we measure our own talent. Beyond that, what is there really? And dont start by telling me that ball players are heroes (ie Babe Ruth), as that’s a matter of perspective… just like this whole pro-gamer topic. :)

  14. @Yak: You said “you don’t need to be shape” (to play games). It’s not a sport based on physical strength, it’s a sport based on mental strength and twitch ability. So, you need to be mentally strong, which pro gamers are. On top of that, a lot of pro gaming houses are providing gym memberships because results have shown it results in better performance for the pro gamers.

    To answer your age question: There are professional gamers that are in their mid and high 30’s. Even a couple Koreans. The reason there aren’t any older is 2 reasons: #1) Gaming hasn’t been around for 30+ years. This has only been around for 10-15 years, since the technology has been there. #2) Just like competing at a physical sport, there’s a prime age range. Most people start to see a decline in their twitch ability at age 25 or younger. I can speak on this from personal experience even.
    Your argument was that people don’t have time as they get older. As long as people are making a living and enjoying what they do, they will have time. I don’t think age matters.

    Last, you said Korean pro-gamers aren’t allowed to have girlfriends or leave their apartments. This is totally untrue. Many pro gamers have girlfriends, social lives, etc. They have to balance their lives just like any normal person does. And no, they aren’t locked into their pro gaming houses. That’s ridiculous.

    @I Hate MMORPGS: If you don’t understand it or respect it, that’s fine. Though, you said kids will never “look up” to pro gamers.

    I recently attended “IPL4 / GSTL Finals” StarCraft 2 and LoL event. I don’t know how many people were there, but it was massive. They rented out nearly the whole Cosmopolitan hotel/casino here in Las Vegas, which is a big hotel. Online, the LoL stream had 300,000 people watching and the SC2 stream had 150,000. While I was there, I met a lot of people, of all ages. One example was a family, the parents were in their 40’s and one kid was a teenager and the other was 9 years old. All of them enjoyed watching SC2 games and played casually. They flew into the event from the east coast. There were quite a few families there. I also met some guys ranging from 16 years old to 40 years old, all there to watch SC2 or LoL. :)

    I think you guys are a bit close minded on this. If you don’t like or respect pro gaming or esports, that’s fine. But there are a lot of people that do understand/like/respect competitive gaming. And the growth on esports is insane. A lot of investors who know nothing about esports except how much it’s blowing up are investing in organizations like MLG.

  15. @Apoc: I think there’s a lack of awareness about the size and scope of pro-gaming. Consequently I think that may color opinions. One thing that still shocks me are the number of people that watch these streams. You mentioned 300k streamers for League of Legends… I just cant understand that number :) (especially for that game). Compare that to nightly news viewership, and it’s just phenomenal. Specifically when taking into consideration that the nightly news is well established (ie awareness and cultural acceptance is high) and simple to consume (you know the channel, no need to worry about bandwidth/lag, can sit in your lazy boy and control the action remotely, etc).

  16. @Ryan: Isn’t saying there is a lack of awareness about the size of pro-gaming basically saying that the size isn’t large enough to generate awareness?

    Also, comparing it to television programming is a misnomer for obvious reasons. A family of 5 could watch the news, and 1 12 year old who has no money could watch an online stream.

    I’m not trying to knock people who play games and make money, I just have serious doubts that it will “explode” unless our culture pulls a complete 180 overnight and somehow acne becomes sexy.

  17. @IHM: re your retort: “Isn’t saying there is a lack of awareness about the size of pro-gaming basically saying that the size isn’t large enough to generate awareness?” I dont think that statement logically follows (it’s just one consideration in a bigger analysis, and I think you know that.) Small things can make big splashes, and big things can plop into the water sink unknown into the depths of oblivion. Has happened all throughout marketing history.

    RE my tv comparison is def not a “misnomer”. I believe it’s more of a mischaracterization to postulate that a family of 5 sits down to watch the evening news. From my experience, it’s not uncommon that I will watch a video game stream, or a minecraft tutorial, or some shit on cats and chickens with my children, yet I never watch the news with them. I would bet a chunk of dough that it’s entirely uncommon for a family of 5 to watch the evening news together (having it on is one thing, watching/paying attention is another).

    Anyway, I “get” what you’re saying, but since your goal seems aimed at minimizing 300k number, I think it fails. Here’s why:
    – 300k live streamers shocks me b/c there is NOT a lot of media around the topic. Compared to the news, there’s almost none.
    – 300k is a respectable number on Youtube, for non-live events. Obviously the mills are better, but if you model this out, being 300k on one day for a youtube vid would likely generate well over a million views in the near future.

    Anyway, my position was simply that 300k for a streaming game is remarkable, specifically when you consider how people consume live media in context of the news. You really think differently? Remember agreeing doesnt mean you endorse pro-gaming, or look up to pro-gamers. :)

  18. forgot to add… i like your gravatar (not as much as the one I made for you :) )… but wasnt it you who made a snarky comment about them once?

  19. @Ryan I love how you said it wasn’t a misnomer and then described exactly how it is a misnomer. The mediums are not equivalent if for no other reason than the lack of research on gaming stream audiences.

    It’s still better than non-sports like Golf and Soccer, but money determines what is popular, and too much money is invested in other forms of entertainment. That’s why UFC isn’t as big as Boxing even though the content is infinitely better.

  20. @IHM dude, I’m going to fly down to Tejas and wrangle some Miguelito. I did no such thing. Your comment #21 was so light on analysis and depth I had to make some inferences which I still think A.) fit within the context of your comment, B.) make the point that I’ve been making. Nothing has changed on my end. Perhaps you’re just showing up?

  21. @Ryan I’m mostly just playing devil’s advocate. I find that it helps people to work out for themselves how much they believe what they’re saying. You’re welcome.

    I don’t have any real feelings about pro-gaming, but it seems like it’s less work to just get a job and play games for fun.

  22. My original comment was regarding the remarkable number of 300k (excluding the portion where I point out that I think people are having a few misaligned debates here), not the endorsement of pro-gaming as a career choice.

    But thank you. πŸ˜€

  23. @Newbie Bear: Are you asking about the next TWIG TV cast (of which there are 2 posted here), or the next VPR cast (the main cast on this subdomain)?

    Regardless… should have a twig soon, as well as a vpr. I’d say check in by end of next week, or follow me on twitter where I update prior to twigs and update post vprs.

  24. Might have to shanghai you for my MO cast, so you can check me… even though I’m fairly confident that I’ll be preaching to the choir.

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